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tv   Anderson Cooper 360  CNN  February 9, 2011 10:00pm-12:00am EST

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donald trump, you're fired. [ applause ] >> that's great. >> thank you. fascinating hour with donald trump, one of my favorite business people. but now anderson cooper with "ac 360." >> piers, thank you very much. good evening, everyone. a lot happening tonight. we're again devoting nearly the entire hour to egypt, the entire hour to debunking the lies the egyptian regime tries to spread about what is really happening there, and what is happening now and has happened today continues to defy expectations. the protests that grew so unexpectedly yesterday, today seemed to spread and appeared to deepen. as you'll see in a moment, egyptian government efforts to hold onto power by lying to egyptians and lying to the world, those efforts seem to be starting to crumble. you'll hear from a government broadcaster who quit because she
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was tired of lying, tired of being fed lies by her government bosses. tonight as always, we're keeping them honest. take a look at liberation square today. if the egyptian government is telling the truth, those people in that square who you see, if the egyptian government is telling the truth, those people are foreigners, they're agitators, criminals, they're people paid to be there. but that is not what you see with your own eyes. that is not what i saw standing in that square. they are people tired of corruption, tired of dictatorship, tired of secret police coming in the night, tired of torture and terror, and tired of being silent. they are people who are no longer afraid. their fear has been defeated. that is what they tell you. for them, there is no turning back. today in fact, they branched out from that square, staging sit-ins, not just in the square, but at the gates of parliament and outside the ministry of health. there are reports of workers going on strike at post offices, textile mills, even the government's main newspaper,
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reports of open revolt there. a sign perhaps that at least a portion of the government propaganda machine may be cracking. that government newspaper today ran a front page story condemning, that's right, condemning recent attacks by pro-mubarak thugs. but the lies from the regime continue. today, egypt's foreign minister said the state of emergency cannot be lifted because they have 17,000 prisoners loose in the streets, and many police stations have been destroyed. and it sounds almost plausible at first, but then you remember that the mubarak regime has been ruling under a state of emergency for nearly 30 years. that man does not know how to rule any other way. the state of emergency allows the police to do what they want, when they want, to whom they want. the demonstrators are saying emergency rule must end. take a look again at liberation square. the protestors are policing themselves, checking i.d.s, patting people down. the chaos is not in that square, the chaos, the real chaos comes
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from government thugs who have gone on the attack. the mubarak regime has tried to create a crisis. we have shown that night after night. shutting the banks. shutting the trains. trying to shut the internet. it's a tactic they've used for 30 years, trying to make egyptians and the world believe that there are only two choices, mubarak or chaos. but there are not just two choices, there are other lies to tell you about. the government continues to hide the truth about how many people have been killed or detained in the demonstrations. they contain 11 people died. that number is closer to 300. they got that number by canvassing hospitals in cairo, alexandria and suez. as for the number of detained people, at least 119. 119 cases that they can document. what does the egyptian government say? well, we've asked here and in cairo, again and again and again and we've yet to get a single answer. they don't admit to any detentions it seems. and they continue to lie by
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painting foreign journalists as outside agitators who have somehow taken over the protest movement. we heard that first from egypt's president mubarak. >> translator: these demonstrations moved a civilized expression of practicing freedom of speech to sad confrontations, which were organized by political groups who wanted to throw fire on oil. >> that was egypt's president hosni mubarak. that is what he said last week. that message was then repeated. we've heard that message repeated again, trying to make it sound like protestors resorted to violence, another lie. his regime beat and killed people.
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egypt's vice president continued to blame reporters and extremists and agitators. watch. >> translator: i actually blame certain friendly nations who have television channels, they're not friendly at all, who have intensified the youth against the nation and the state. >> translator: there is a great number of people who have infiltrated them and there are countless poisonous thoughts that are entering the thoughts of these youths and many of these youths are actually good. >> maybe there are foreign agendas, the muslim brotherhood, for businessmen. >> that's the government's line. their list of culprits seems to include hezbollah, shiites, agents of israel and other s sinister foreign elements. he was asked by vice president biden's phone call to egypt's vice president, calling for prompt and meaningful reforms. watch. >> how do you take that?
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do you regard that as helpful advice? >> no, not at all. why is it so? because when you speak about prompt, immediate, now, as if you are imposing on a great country like egypt, a great friend that has always maintained the best of relationships with the united states, you are imposing your will on him. >> so now they're trying to stir nationalist pride. it's the same strategy we heard from the vice president of egypt yesterday when he said the protestors and reporters were belittling and insulting egypt. the regime is saying protestors are being paid $100 or 100 euros or being fed kentucky fried chicken. the chanting you hear is arabic for "they called us the youth of kentucky." this by the way is the kentucky fried chicken at liberation square. yes, there is one. but even if it could feed hundreds of thousands of people, which it can't, it's closed and
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has been since the demonstrations began. but as absurd has foreigners high on 11 herbs and spices trying to take over egypt is to us, this is a government that's been lying for decades. now one of those former liars has come forward, resigning her job, putting herself at great risk because she can lie no more. until last week, she was an inkor and i talked to her about how the lies get spread. >> i had a program on television, and i was given a press release from the interior ministry saying that the muslim brotherhood had instigated these protests and i knew for a fact the muslim brotherhood opted to stay out initially. they came onboard later. then i had another talk show and i was told to mention the
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foreign agents that were fomenting the unrest and talk about people were being paid to be in the square. so when i went to tahrir square myself, i didn't find any foreign agents. it was -- these were the egyptians and it was an all-inclusive revolution. it has everyone on board, women, entire families, and their primary demand, they want president mubarak to step down and that was never mentioned on egyptian television. >> never mentioned on egyptian television. i've seen some e-mails suggesting that the reason we on this program are calling out the mubarak regime for their lies, trying every night to point out these lies is that it is somehow personal, because i and my team was attacked by thugs on two occasions, that somehow i lost objective fi. i can understand why people may believe that. but i don't believe that is the case. this is not personal.
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this is not to insult egypt. this is about the truth, and all the reporters on the ground, and frankly all the people in that square and most of the people around the world have seen the truth in egypt. you've seen peaceful protestors attacked by police and mobs. having seen the truth, it is our obligation, i believe, to continue to bear witness to it, for the people in this square every day now is life and death. there is no going back for them. we continue to invite members of the egyptian government in cairo and in washington and in new york to appear on this program. they continue to decline. we would like to ask them for evidence of foreign infiltration, evidence that reporters are paying people to protest. we would like to ask for any proof at all of any allegations, but we don't believe they have any. the invitation is an open one. joining us from cairo is ivan watson and in washington, professor dr. fouad ajami of johns hopkins. fouad, egypt's foreign minister saying today that america is
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trying to force its will on egypt. you talked about the playbook that these folks are using. this seems yet another play right out of a playbook. >> well, look, anderson, i know this man, not very well, he's not a friend of mine, i knew him when he was ambassador to the u.n., these are men who manufacture their own truth. and now the truth is laid bare. consider, for example, they tell us we can't lift the state of emergency because there are 17,000 prisoners out there, but they concede that the former superior minister basically went and demolished the prisons and told the prisoners leave and don't look back. so these are men who not even good at lying anymore. they trip up over their own lies because they lived for a long time in this manufactured truth that they sold to themselves and to the word. and they told america, we have to admit this, our partner in
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the war on terror, and yet as we know, we can talk about it later, we know that this is a regime that gave us both zawahiri and the psychopath muhammad atta on 9/11. they're used to lying. >> ivan watson, the protests actually expanded in a way again today. it's at the gates of power right now, right? >> that's right. it's a test of wills that's going on. the battle is furious. what we saw last night were groups of protestors who moved out of tahrir square, moved up right to the gates of the egyptian parliament and camped out there overnight. they are maintaining their vigil now. they are conducting a sit-in, and their argument is that the egyptian parliament they're saying is fraj lent. the elections of last november
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and december were widely considered to have been rigged and they have continued their calls for a new round of elections there and for the current parliament to be disbanded. the protestors i talked to, anderson, say they're going to continue to try to ramp up pressure against the egyptian government by perhaps moving on to other places in the days and weeks ahead. >> fouad, a lot of folks are watching this broadcast. what do you see happening now? i think a lot of people underestimated these protestors, a lot of people i think in the rest of the world thought, okay, you know what? it's going to be fading down now. the exact opposite has occurred. >> well, anderson, you should take credit for some of these e-mails. one came to both of us, and it's not about you or me, it's about this boy of 16 who told me he's never watched news before. he's never stayed up to watch news. he's watching "ac 360" at 4:00 a.m., at 4:00 a.m. cairo time
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and thanks us for our support of their revolution. these are young people, these are good people, middle class people, orderly people. they're not interested in anti-americanism or islamic fundamentalism. they just simply want the normal life that they're entitled to and that this regime is denying them. on this confrontation, there is something that just occurred to me between the regime and the protestors. what we're really witnessing, and this hasn't changed. it's a sort of, if you will, this is an irresistible force meeting an immovable object. the irresistible force is the people out in the square and the revolution is spreading and the immovable object is both the man at the helm of the regime, meaning hosni mubarak, and the regime itself, mean his vice president, his ruling party, and this fake and terrible world he constructed around himself.
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>> i want to go back to something you said right in the beginning of this, fouad, which is extraordinary and i didn't think about it until just now. so the foreign minister says they can't lift the state of emergency because there are 17,000 prisoners. the former interior ministry is being investigated for intentionally letting those prisoners out to foment crisis and chaos, so now they're using something their government did as another fake reason. it's kind of orwellian. >> i know several of them. i know the editor in chief of the leading paper. if i were in this regime, i would be very careful because this regime is beginning to throw them over the wall. it's beginning to make concessions and in making concessions, it's begun to prosecute former ministers. the minister of commerce, the
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minister of tourism, the minister of interior. so i think maybe this regime is cracking, maybe that immovable object maybe beginning to move. but we're still early in this confrontation. there is really no victory for either side yet. but morally, morally the regime has completely collapsed. >> and yet, again, i think every day the lives of these protestors hang in the balance. we'll come back and see how the white house was handling the crisis. ivan, you spoke with the man really of the hour of these last few days. i want to play some of your interview with him. he's taken a leave of absence from google. he was held in custody basically for this entire protest, taken, ripped off the streets by secret police, blind folded, he's been released, has reinvigorated this protest movement. you talked to him. i want to play some about that. >> did you plan a revolution?
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>> yeah, we did. >> what was the plan? >> the plan was to get everyone on the street. number one is we're going to start from, you know, poor areas. our demands are going to be all about what touches people's daily life. >> there's been a lot of speculation about muslim brotherhood being involved in this uprising. how would you describe yourself and your friends who helped mobilize for the first protests on january 25th? >> muslim brotherhood was not involved at all in the organization of this. muslim brotherhood announced they're not going to participate officially. and they said if the young guys want to join, if their young guys want to join they're not going to tell them no. if you want to free a society, give them internet access. the young crowds are going to all go out and see and hear the unbiased media. see the truth about, you know,
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other nations and their own nation, and they're going to be able to communicate and collaborate together. >> was this an internet revolution? >> definitely, this is the internet revolution. i will call it revolution 2.0. >> the egyptian government right now is talking about change, talking about committees, constitutional reform, investigating the last parliamentary elections, respecting the demands of the youth, stopping arrests, liberating the media. what do you think about these messages? >> this is no longer the time to negotiate, unfortunately. we went on the street on the 25th, and we wanted to negotiate. we wanted to talk to our government. we were knocking on the door. they decided to negotiate with us at night with rubber bullets, with police sticks, with, you know, water hoses, with tear gas.
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and arresting about 500 of us. thanks, we got the message. now when we escalated this and it became really big, they started listeningtous. >> do you feel any responsibility? >> no, no. i am sorry, but -- i am sorry for their loss. i'm telling you, i am ready to die. i have a lot to lose in this life. you know, i work now as an -- i'm on leave of absence. i work in the best company to work for in the world. i have the best wife and i love my kids. but i'm willing to lose all of that for my dream. no one is going to go against our desire. no one. and i'm telling this to omar suleiman. he is going to watch this. you are not going to stop this. kidnap me. kill us. do whatever you want to do. we are getting back our country.
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you guys have been ruining this country for 30 years. enough! enough! >> speaking directly to the vice president of egypt. fear has been defeated the protestors keep saying. there is no turning back. you heard that young man, that executive works for a big western company, does not need money, has a family, yet he says he's willing to die for freedom. join the live cheat right now at ac360.com. up next, evidence the white house should have known egypt was heading to be trouble. i'm talking about it with dr. fouad ajami and david gergen. and later, the congressman who took off his shirt and lost his job. details of the recovery of gabrielle giffords. some are calling the latest development another small miracle. i'll explain when we come back. from knowing when my next job will be
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new images of the uprising keep coming in from egypt. a lot have been posted on youtube. this one today. we don't know enough about what happened either before or after the camera was rolling, but by and large the pictures speak for themselves. some of them are tough to watch.
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this is in the egyptian city of mahallah on the 28th of january. those are police vehicles there, moving out. a tank is looking on the scene. protestors are everywhere. on the top of your screen, they're just mowing down folks. they don't seem to care if they hit anyone. soldiers aren't doing anything. the protestors watch up to the vehicle, start rocking it back and forth. looks like they may have pulled the driver out. they succeed in turning over the entire vehicle. let's just watch. we don't know what happens next. the same can be said for egypt itself. we don't know what will happen next. neither does washington, the white house. the question is should they have been better prepared? jackson diehl wrote a column. last april they went a letter to
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secretary of state clinton saying -- >> i want to talk about it with professor dr. fouad ajami and david gergen. fouad, we've been told from the start how the developments came as a shock. now we're finding out about this bipartisan working group did sort of see some sort of a need for changes on the horizon more than a year ago, told the administration. do you think the white house dropped the ball here or is that not fair? >> i'm not a big fan of the obama administration, but i was marginally involved in discussions during the presidency of george w. bush about egypt, because they wanted to push egypt toward reform and nudge hosni mubarak toward reform. they were very concerned about the ways of hosni mubarak. and in the end, they pulled back from it. so i think there's plenty of blame to go around.
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this is a man who has been in power from reagan to obama. he's known five presidents, and he's picked the pocket and stiffed five presidents in a row. this kind of guessing who lost egypt and who should have known, i am really not interested in it. i wrote a lot about egypt trying to underline the troubles of the mubarak regime. it's really not about this debate in washington. it's really about this revolution in egypt and whether we go and embrace it and proclaim it and accept it as a legitimate revolution that a free people are entitled to. >> david, given the history with egypt, the american support of the mubarak regime for 30 years, how in your opinion have they been playing this, mixed messages or have they been consistent? >> they've had lots of mixed messages. they did not see it coming, nor did any other major government that i'm aware of.
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certainly in international forums ten days ago, there was widespread belief that nobody saw this coming. so the americans couldn't be blamed for that. where i do think they bear some blame is not developing some alternative plans should something like this occur. they had no backup plans, they had no plan b, no plan c, nor did they have a lot of strong relationships within this community of protestors, some of the non-profit groups, some of the other power centers in egypt. the fact is, most american administrations stretching back over five presidents have watched mubarak pick our pockets but he's also been a strong ally on a lot of issues such as iran and israel that have been very important for american presidents and there's a tendency to look the other way. at the thievery. to look at the other way at the corruption and repression and say look, we have larger fish to fry. were they caught by surprise?
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yes. but did they have a backup plan? no. have they been consistent on this? no. >> fouad, it is interesting, the bush administration, as you mentioned, had this sort of policy of i think it was name and shame was sort of the nickname for it. i think condoleezza rice made a very open statement at cairo university during the bush administration criticizing the regime, saying they needed to be more open. the obama administration took a different tact of privately saying the same things but publicly not naming or blaming, right? >> we're so many light years from that famous speech that barack obama gave in egypt in june of 2009. it was full of promise. but soon people in egypt and beyond realized that he is a
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realist, quote unquote, that he's not interested in the spread of freedom. because it was associated with george w. bush, had a bad name, and the obama administration, and i hate to just -- i want to respond to something that david said. my respect and affection for david is unlimited. he's worked with as many presidents as henry viii had in wives. >> some would say with equal results. >> and i'm very differential to him on matters of policy. but we must understand the bargain we made with someone like hosni mubarak. yes, he helped us in retail ways, but the terror he unleashed on us indirectly, and the blowback that came our way is enormous. a thesis has been made, the road to 9/11 led through the prisons of egypt. the torture chambers, the prisons that gave us many, many members of al qaeda. al qaeda had a saudi prince here
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and a saudi head, ie osama bin laden and much of the leadership, much of the men who committed terror were the product of egyptian society and the pathologies and injustices. >> fouad, i think that's right. it's fundamental. but i think you would agree that every administration in recent years has made the bargain on the side of security as to supporting the forces of democracy that were building up and the protests against the repression that occurred long before this president came in. i mean, don't you think every president has made that same bargain? >> as i said, remember, this man was -- he came into the presidency after the assassination of anwr sadat on the watch of president reagan. so he's been around nor a very long time and he learned how to play the american system. he knows how to talk to congressman and less so to the media.
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he's not a media friendly guy. but he also knows how to talk to intelligence people, as well. >> anderson, i might just add, "the los angeles times" is reporting that there's a growing split within the administration itself, that at the senior level, secretary of state, secretary of defense, nsc adviser, they're all for this strategy fouad has been arguing, let's have an orderly transition as hillary clinton has been arguing. but there is a growing group in the middle, the person who drafted the cairo speech, who are pushing to come out more strongly for the demonstrators, let's get rid of mubarak and move along. >> david gergen, appreciate it. dr. fouad ajami, i appreciate it. still ahead, are concerns about the muslim brotherhood and the role it might play justified or overblown? you'll hear from a former member of the group. later, a congressman's
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we're going to have more on egypt in a moment, in particular the muslim brotherhood.
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but i want to get you caught up on a story happening in the united states. the website gawker posted this picture that lee e-mailed a woman to craigslist, a woman who wasn't his wife. congressman lee didn't get the memo that e-mailing a stranger may not be such a good idea. the two-term republican resigned today, issued an apology. dana bash joins me with the latest. i never even heard of this guy before. what do we know about it? >> i can tell you what we know according to gawker.com which obtained these e-mails. lee, who allegedly used his real game from a g-mail account, sent a reply as posted by gawker. it said, hope i'm not a toad,
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note the smiley face. i'm a very fit, fun classy guy, live in the capitol hill area, six feet, 190 pounds, blond, blue, 39, lobbyist and i promise not to disappoint. they had e-mail exchanges after that, where the lee said he was divorced. the woman figured out that lee was not who he said he was, gave the information to gawker. i want to emphasize that anyone close to him has confirmed to us the picture but he did abruptly resign today after this came out. >> it's amazing how quickly he resigned. >> warp speed, anderson. it was late afternoon that gawker coasted these alleged flirtatious e-mails. we got word from a source that he resigned and then we got a statement. he said, i regret that the harm
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that my actions have caused my family, my staff and my constituents. i deeply and sincerely apologize to them all. i have made profound mistakes and promise to work hard as i seek their forgiveness. lee said later that he resigned effective immediately and there was a dramatic moment, anderson, on the floor of the house where the resignation letter was read and i can tell you from talking to a top house republicans, they were relieved they did it that fast. the last thing the new house republican majority wants is a prolonged sex scandal, because they're hoping because he wasn't well known, that it won't hurt the majority and go away pretty quickly. >> i certainly feel for his family and what they must be going through tonight. just ahead, egypt's largest opposition group has thrown its weight behind the protests, but are the muslim brotherhood's goals at odds with democracy? first, isha sesay has a "360" bulletin.
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gabrielle giffords is speaking again one month after being shot in the head at point blank range. a spokesman said she asked for toast two days ago at the rehab facility. she's apparently spoken other words, as well. her doctors say it's an important step in her recovery. the december death of a 27-year-old woman at the missouri home has been ruled an accident. the medical examiner says she died of a drug overdose. haiti's first elected president has been issued a new passport to return home according to the haitian superior minister. he left during a revolt in 2004 and has been living in south africa. his lawyer said that aristide has no intention of reentering politics. and a new analysis of 15
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different studies finds that people who sleep less than six hours a night or more than nine hours raise their risk of developing or dying from heart disease and stroke. information i'll stay up worrying about. >> i was going to say, now i'm going to stay up worrying and woman get more than six hours. time for tonight's "shot." it's a you teen video of a guy being called the asian mc hammer, busting out the "can't touch this" dance. take a look. ♪ >> simply has the pants. i didn't know you could still find those pants now that it's no longer 1993. you notice the woman in the background? my favorite part. he's dancing and his mom or grandmother is just sewing in the background, can't be
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mothered. isha, we'll check in with you later on. our egypt coverage continues with a closer look at the muslim brotherhood, who they are, what they say they want and why some are afraid what their role would be in a post mubarak egypt. >>
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brotherhood reiterated the group's stance in the egyptian
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protest. they said they would not field a presidential candidate in the next elections, but they are not alawing fears of some about what the group's influence would believe. i want to give you a quick primer. the muslim brotherhood has been active for more than 80 years. its purpose is religious and political. the corner stone is the belief that islam is more than a religion but a way of life and should have a role in political life. members were banned from running for the presidency and muslim brotherhood candidates ran as independents and won 88 of 444 parliament seats in 2005. one final point, the muslim brotherhood rejects violence but some critics say the group could be just biding time waiting for power and that anti-violent stance may change. i spoke earlier with two different people on different sides of this. i moek with ayyah ali and peter
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bergen, author of "the longest war. you were a member of the muslim brotherhood when you were in kenya. why are you concerned about the muslim brotherhood in egypt and the chances of them coming to power? >> as a 15, 16-year-old, the strong members of the muslim brotherhood who educated me is they taught me for us to strive toward a society governed by sharia law, islamic law, and it wasn't only for us living in kenya. they intended it for everyone all over the world. >> so when people say look, the muslim brotherhood in egypt has renounced violence and worked peacefully for this years now. >> whether they work with violence or peacefully, they're working toward the goal of establishing islamic law. >> peter, are you as concerned about the muslim brotherhood in general, and getting into power in egypt? >> not really on either front,
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anderson. first of all, as you know, you visited there recently. the muslim brotherhood is engaged in conventional politics in egypt for a long time now. secondly, there's no chance of them getting to run egypt, because the level of support they have is not enough to take the country over. we saw that this revolution, they basically kind of got on the revolution late in the game. so they will be a player but they won't be the player in egypt going forward. >> do you have any doubt that the muslim brotherhood would like an islamic state, no? >> sure, and as you well know, anderson, and as ms. ali also knows, you ask most muslims do you want sharia law, they would say yes because it means a lot of different things to a lot of people. >> it doesn't mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. growing up, me and all the muslims were taught two main
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lessons. everything in the koran is the true word of god. everything that the prophet mohammed did was right and just. >> i understand colonels about the muslim brotherhood and if you are a woman, if you are a minority, there are many reasons why one wouldn't want the muslim brotherhood to take power. what is the alternative? if they do represent 20% to 30%, you can't close off that voice in a democratic egypt. you're arguing for building up other institutions, having time so the other institutions can be built up. >> yes, and all of these countries people will say elections, lengelections. the muslim brotherhood has h resources and infrastructure to mobilize huge masses. look at the liberal voices. they don't have a common ideology. what i have seen on tahrir square and tunisia, get the bad
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guy out. that's not a program. what we need to do is stop worrying about the muslim brotherhood. a, there's going to be -- i hope that the egyptian constitution has to be rewritten in such a way that there are safeguards against a sharia state or against the next autocracy. >> that seems like what many opposition figures in egypt right now are hoping to do, mohammed elbaradei who says the muslim brotherhood gets about 20%, 30% of the popular vote, he's talking about allowing there to be a year transitional government that allows other forces, democratic institutions to be bolstered and gain support, correct? >> i think we're all in agreement that is the way forward, but we have to recognize that democracies are going to throw out people we don't necessarily agree with, and that's the point of democracy. >> of course that's the point, but democracy is more than that.
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the muslim brotherhood, an islamist radical organization, once they get to power, is going to violate the rights of women, of homosexuals, religious minorities. we have to do everything in our power to prevent them from violating those human rights. >> peter, there are people in the audience who will equate muslim brotherhood with a group like al qaeda. al qaeda actually hates the muslim brotherhood, from my understanding, correct? >> al zawahri has written a book critiquing the muslim brotherhood and is critical for them because they have engaged in democratic politics, which al qaeda regards as against islam. so there is quite a lot of mutual hostility between these two groups. >> but that should not blind us to the shared objectives, the establishment of a society based on sharia law.
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zawahiri wants to achieve that through violent means. the muslim brotherhood's current leadership wants to achieve that through gradual peaceful means using and abusing the vocabulary of freedom and democracy. >> but you're not arguing this as a reason to keep mubarak in power? >> no. >> you're saying this is a reason to bolster democratic institutions in however long it takes in this transitional period? >> yes. i'm frustrated by what i've been reading in the past three weeks, which is it's either a mubarak type government or it's going to be muslim brotherhood and sharia. >> that's what mubarak has said, it's either me or the muslim brotherhood. >> i'm saying there is a third way. if you look at the people in tahrir square, there are individuals there who believe in an alternative. what i am noting is they lack the infrastructure that the brotherhood has. they lack the power that the
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mubarak type people have. we need to support them. >> appreciate your time. thank you. well, other news tonight. oklahoma and other states getting hit with another round of snow. more on the storm, where it's headed, coming up next. and new information out today that may make a routine procedure for women with breast cancer unnecessary. details ahead. than many other allergy medications. omnaris. omnaris. to the nose! did you know nasal symptoms like congestion can be caused by allergic inflammation? omnaris relieves your symptoms by fighting inflammation. side effects may include headache, nosebleed and sore throat. [ inhales deeply ] i nipped my allergy symptoms in the bud. omnaris. ask your doctor. battling nasal allergy symptoms? omnaris combats the cause. get omnaris for only $11 at omnaris.com.
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of thousands are treated every year. the study found that removing lymph nodes from the armpit did not help patients live longer or avoid recurrence. all the women studied received lumpectomies and chemo therapy or hormone treatments. cue the misery, another winter storm in the southeast has turned roads and runways treacherous. that's after pounding the nation's midsection. parts of oklahoma got up to a foot of snow and windchills were 10 to 30 degrees below zero in some areas. fannie mae and freddie mac's days c s could be numbered. the white house will announce a gradual phasing out of the housing giants. they got a $134 billion taxpayer funded bailout back in 2008. and a source tells tmz that charlie sheen wants to return to
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the set of "two and a half men" by next week. tmz says sheen has offered to pay one third of his salaries of his crew. i'm so over him. >> we're going to go back to egypt at the top of the hour where the uprising appears to be growing deeper and how the egyptian government, they're just flat out lying about it. details ahead.
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we're again devoting nearly the entire hour to egypt, the entire hour to debunking the lies the egyptian regime tries to spread about what is really happening there, and what is happening now and has happened today continues to defy expectations. the protests that grew so unexpectedly yesterday, today seemed to spread and appeared to deepen. as you'll see in a moment, egyptian government efforts to hold onto power by lying to egyptians and lying to the world, those efforts seem to be starting to crumble. you'll hear from a government broadcaster who quit because she was tired of lying to her viewers, tired of being fed lies by her government bosses. tonight as always, we're keeping
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them honest. take a look at liberation square today. if the egyptian government is telling the truth, those people in that square who you see, if the egyptian government is telling the truth, those people are foreigners, they're agitators, criminals, they're people paid to be there. but that is not what you see with your own eyes. that is not what i saw standing in that square. they are people tired of corruption, tired of dictatorship, tired of secret police coming in the night, tired of torture and terror, and tired of being silent. they are people who are no longer afraid. their fear has been defeated. that is what they tell you. for them, there is no turning back. today in fact, they branched out from that square, staging sit-ins, not just in the square, but at the gates of parliament and outside the ministry of health. there are reports of workers going on strike at post offices, textile mills, even the government's main newspaper, reports of open revolt there. a sign perhaps that at least a portion of the government propaganda machine may be cracking. that government newspaper today
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ran a front page story condemning, that's right, condemning recent attacks by pro-mubarak thugs. but the lies from the regime continue. today, egypt's foreign minister said the state of emergency cannot be lifted because they have 17,000 prisoners loose in the streets, and many police stations have been destroyed. and it sounds almost plausible at first, but then you remember that the mubarak regime has been ruling under a state of emergency for nearly 30 years. that man does not know how to rule any other way. the state of emergency allows the police to do what they want, when they want, to whom they want. the demonstrators are saying emergency rule must end. take a look again at liberation square. the protestors are policing themselves, checking i.d.s, patting people down. the chaos is not in that square, the chaos, the real chaos comes from government thugs who have gone on the attack. the mubarak regime has tried to create a crisis. we have shown that night after night. shutting the banks. shutting the trains.
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trying to shut the internet. it's a tactic they've used for 30 years, trying to make egyptians and the world believe that there are only two choices, mubarak or chaos. but there are not just two choices, there are other lies to tell you about. the government continues to hide the truth about how many people have been killed or detained in the demonstrations. they continue to claim 11 people have died. according to human rights watch, that number is closer to 300. they got that number by canvassing hospitals in cairo, alexandria and suez. as for the number of detained people, human rights watch says at least 119. 119 cases that they can document. what does the egyptian government say? well, we've asked here and in cairo, again and again and again and we've yet to get a single answer. they don't admit to any detentions it seems. and they continue to lie by painting foreign journalists as outside agitators who have somehow taken over the protest movement. we heard that first from egypt's
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president mubarak. >> translator: these demonstrations moved from a civilized expression of practicing freedom of speech to sad confrontations, which were organized by political groups who wanted to throw fire on oil. >> that was egypt's president hosni mubarak. that is what he said last week. that message was then repeated. we've heard that message repeated again, trying to make it sound like protestors resorted to violence, another lie. his regime beat and killed people. when they could no longer get away doing it directly, they then had pro-mubarak thugs do it. egypt's vice president continued to blame reporters and extremists and agitators. watch. >> translator: i actually blame
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certain friendly nations who have television channels, they're not friendly at all, who have intensified the youth against the nation and the state. >> translator: there is a great number of people who have infiltrated them and there are countless poisonous thoughts that are entering the thoughts of these youths and many of these youths are actually good. maybe there are foreign agendas, the muslim brotherhood, agendas for the private political parties, for businessmen. >> that's the government's line. their list of culprits seems to include hezbollah, shiites, agents of israel and other sinister foreign elements. and just this evening on pbs' news hour, egypt's foreign minister suggested the united states is trying to push his country around. he was asked by vice president biden's phone call to egypt's vice president, calling for prompt and meaningful reforms. watch. >> how do you take that? do you regard that as helpful advice from a friend? >> no, not at all. why is it so? because when you speak about
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prompt, immediate, now, as if you are imposing on a great country like egypt, a great friend that has always maintained the best of relationships with the united states, you are imposing your will on him. >> so now they're playing another card, trying to stir nationalist pride. it's the same strategy we heard from the vice president of egypt yesterday when he said the protestors and reporters were belittling and insulting egypt. sometimes the allegations are almost comical. the regime is saying protestors in liberation square are being paid $100 or 100 euros or being fed kentucky fried chicken. the chanting you hear is arabic for "they called us the youth of kentucky." this by the way is the kentucky fried chicken at liberation square. yes, there is one. but even if it could feed hundreds of thousands of people, which it can't, it's closed and has been since the demonstrations began. but as absurd as foreigners high on 11 herbs and spices
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trying to take over egypt may sound to us, this is a dictator that has been lying to its people for decades. now one of those former liars has come forward, resigning her job, putting herself at great risk because she can lie no more. her name is shahira hamin. until last week, she was an anchor and i talked to her about how the lies get spread. >> i had a program on television, and i was given a press release from the interior ministry saying that the muslim brotherhood had instigated these protests and i knew for a fact the muslim brotherhood opted to stay out initially. they came onboard later. then i had another talk show and i was told to mention the foreign agents that were fomenting the unrest and talk about people were being paid to be in the square.
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so when i went to tahrir square myself, i didn't find any foreign agents. it was -- these were the egyptians and it was an all-inclusive revolution. it has everyone onboard, women, entire families, and their primary demand, they want president mubarak to step down and that was never mentioned on egyptian television. >> never mentioned on egyptian television. i've seen some e-mails suggesting that the reason we on this program are calling out the mubarak regime for their lies, trying every night to point out these lies is that it is somehow personal, because i and my team was attacked by thugs on two occasions, that somehow i lost objectivity. i can understand why people may believe that. but let me just tell you, i don't believe that that is the case. this is not personal. this is not to insult egypt. this is about the truth, and all the reporters on the ground, and frankly all the people in that square and most of the people around the world have seen the
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truth in egypt. you've seen peaceful protestors attacked by uniformed police and then by mobs. having seen the truth, it is our obligation, i believe, to continue to bear witness to it, for the people in this square every day now is life and death. there is no going back for them. we continue to invite members of the egyptian government in cairo and in washington and in new york to appear on this program. they continue to decline. we would like to ask them for evidence of foreign infiltration, evidence that reporters are paying people to protest. we would like to ask for any proof at all of any of their allegations. but we don't believe they have any. so far they refuse to come here. the invitation is an open one. joining us from cairo is ivan watson and in washington, professor dr. fouad ajami of johns hopkins school of advanced international studies. fouad, egypt's foreign minister saying today that america is trying to force its will on egypt. you talked about the playbook that these folks are using. this seems yet another play right out of a playbook. >> well, look, anderson, i know
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this man, not very well, he's not a friend of mine, i knew him when he was ambassador to the u.n., this is the egyptian political class of the mubarak regime. these are men who manufacture their own truth. and now the truth is laid bare. consider, for example, they tell us we can't lift the state of emergency because there are 17,000 prisoners out there, but they concede that the former superior minister basically went and demolished the prisons and told the prisoners leave and don't look back. so these are men who not even good at lying anymore. they trip up over their own lies because they lived for a long time in this manufactured truth that they sold to themselves and to the world. and they told america, we have to admit this, our partner in this search for peace, our partner in this war on terror, and yet as we know, we can talk
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about it later, we know that this is a regime that gave us both zawahiri and the psychopath muhammad atta on 9/11. so this regime has a lot to answer for, but it's been used to lying. it knows no other way. >> ivan watson, the protests actually expanded in a way again today. it's at the gates of power right now, right? >> that's right. it's a test of wills that's going on. the battle is furious. what we saw last night were groups of protestors who moved out of tahrir square, moved up a number of blocks right to the gates of the egyptian parliament, and they camped out there overnight. they are maintaining their vigil now. they are conducting a sit-in, and their argument is that the egyptian parliament they're saying is fraudulent. that the elections of last november and december were widely considered to have been rigged and they have continued their calls for a new round of elections there and for the current parliament to be
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disbanded. the protestors i talked to, anderson, say they're going to continue to try to ramp up pressure against the egyptian government by perhaps moving on to other places in the days and weeks ahead. >> fouad, a lot of folks are watching this broadcast. i know listening to your comments, i read some of the e-mails you've been receiving and they're really extraordinary. what do you see happening now? i think a lot of people underestimated these protestors, a lot of people i think in the rest of the world thought, okay, you know what? it's going to be fading down now. the exact opposite has occurred. >> well, anderson, you should take credit for some of these e-mails. there's one e-mail that came to both of us, and it's not about you and it's not about me. it's about this boy of 16 who told me he's never watched news before. he's never stayed up to watch news. he's watching "ac 360" at 4:00 a.m., at 4:00 a.m. cairo time and he thanks us for our support of their revolution. these are young people, these are good people, middle class people, orderly people. they're not interested in
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anti-americanism or islamic fundamentalism. they just simply want the normal life that they're entitled to and that this regime is denying them. on this confrontation, there is something that just occurred to me between the regime and the protestors. what we're really witnessing, and this hasn't changed. it's a sort of, if you will, this is an irresistible force meeting an immovable object. the irresistible force is the force of these decent people out on the streets and out in the square and now the revolution is spreading elsewhere. and the immovable object is both the man at the helm of the regime, meaning hosni mubarak, and the regime itself, meaning his vice president and his rule party and this fake and terrible world he constructed around himself. >> i want to go back to something you said right in the beginning of this, fouad, which is extraordinary and i didn't think about it until just now. so the foreign minister says
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they can't lift the state of emergency because there are 17,000 prisoners. the formernterior ministry is being investigated for intentionally letting those prisoners out to foment crisis and chaos, so now they're using something someone in their government did as another fake reason as to why they can't list the emergency. it's kind of orwellian. >> don't you love this parallel world they live in? i know several of them. i know the editor in chief of the leading paper. and so many of them. if i were in this regime, i would be very careful because this regime is beginning to feeds its own to the crowd. it's beginning to throw them over the wall. it's beginning to make concessions and in making concessions, it's begun to prosecute former ministers. the former head of the national democratic party. the minister of commerce, the minister of tourism, the minister of interior. so i think maybe this regime is cracking, maybe that immovable
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object may be beginning to move. but we're still early in this confrontation. there is really no victory for either side yet. but morally, morally the regime has completely collapsed. >> and yet, again, i think every day the lives of these protestors hang in the balance. fouad, we'll be coming back to you after the break to talk about how the white house is handling the crisis, whether it was caught flathooded. ivan, you spoke with the man really of the hour of these last few days. i want to play some of your interview with him. he's taken a leave of absence from google. he's now an activist. he was held in custody basically for this entire protest, taken, ripped off the streets by secret police, blindfolded, he's been released, has reinvigorated this protest movement. you talked to him. i want to play some about that. >> did you plan a revolution? >> yeah, we did. >> what was the plan? >> the plan was to get everyone on the street.
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number one is we're going to start from, you know, poor areas. our demands are going to be all about what touches people's daily life. >> there's been a lot of speculation about muslim brotherhood being involved in this uprising. how would you describe yourself and your friends who helped mobilize for the first protests on january 25th? >> muslim brotherhood was not involved at all in the organization of this. muslim brotherhood announced they're not going to participate officially. and they said if the young guys want to join, if their young guys want to join they're not going to tell them no. if you want to free a society, give them internet access. because people are going to -- the young crowds are going to all go out and see and hear the unbiased media. see the truth about, you know, other nations and their own nation, and they're going to be able to communicate and collaborate together. >> was this an internet revolution? >> definitely, this is the internet revolution.
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i will call it revolution 2.0. >> the egyptian government right now is talking about change, talking about committees, constitutional reform, investigating the last parliamentary elections, respecting the demands of the youth, stopping arrests, liberating the media. what do you think about these messages? >> this is no longer the time to negotiate, unfortunately. we went on the street on the 25th, and we wanted to negotiate. we wanted to talk to our government. we were knocking on the door. they decided to negotiate with us at night with rubber bullets, with police sticks, with, you know, water hoses, with tear gas. and arresting about 500 of us. thanks, we got the message. now when we escalated this and
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it became really big, they started listening to us. >> do you feel any responsibility? >> no, no. i am sorry, but -- i am sorry for their loss. i'm telling you, i am ready to die. i have a lot to lose in this life. you know, i work now as an -- i'm on leave of absence. i work in the best company to work for in the world. i have the best wife and i love my kids. but i'm willing to lose all of that for my dream. no one is going to go against our desire. no one. and i'm telling this to omar suleiman. he is going to watch this. you are not going to stop this. kidnap me. kidnap all my colleagues. put us in jail. kill us. do whatever you want to do. we are getting back our country. you guys have been ruining this country for 30 years. enough! enough! enough!
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>> speaking directly to the vice president of egypt. fear has been defeated the protestors keep saying. there is no turning back. you heard that young man, that executive works for a big western company, does not need money, has money of his own, has a family. yet he says he's willing to die, as are the other protestors, for freedom. he's willing to die for freedom. join the live cheat right now at ac360.com. up next, evidence the white house should have known egypt was heading to be trouble. keeping them honest with that. i'm talking about it with dr. fouad ajami and david gergen. and later, the congressman who took off his shirt and lost his job. first, let's check in with isha sesay. isha? details of a major milestone in the recovey of arizona congresswoman gabrielle giffords. some are calling the latest development another small miracle. i'll explain when we come back. requires more than wishful thinking. it requires determination and decisive action. go to e-trade and get unbiased analyst ratings and 24/7 help from award-winning customer support
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new images of the uprising keep coming in from egypt. a lot have been posted on youtube. this one today. we don't know enough about what happened either before or after the camera was rolling, but by and large the pictures speak for themselves. some of them are tough to watch. this is in the egyptian city of mahallah on the 28th of january. three days into the uprising. those are police vehicles there, moving out.
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a tank is looking on the scene. protestors are everywhere. then from the top of your screen, you see that vehicle. they're just mowing down protestors right there. they don't seem to care if they hit anyone. soldiers aren't doing anything. the protestors catch up to the vehicle, start rocking it back and forth. looks like they may have pulled the driver out. hard to tell. eventually they succeed in turning over the entire vehicle. let's just watch. we don't know what happens next. the same can be said for egypt itself. we don't know what will happen next. neither does washington, the white house. the question is should they have been better prepared? would they have been? jackson diehl wrote a column in "the washington post" titled "the egypt warnings obama ignored." last april they went a letter to secretary of state clinton saying --
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>> i want to talk about it with professor dr. fouad ajami and joining us also senior policy analyst david gergen. fouad, we've been told from the start how the developments came as a shock. now we're finding out about this bipartisan working group did sort of see some sort of a need for changes on the horizon more than a year ago, told the administration. do you think the white house dropped the ball here or is that not fair? >> i'm not a big fan of the obama administration, but i was marginally involved in discussions during the presidency of george w. bush about egypt, because they wanted to push egypt toward reform and nudge hosni mubarak toward reform. they were very concerned about the autocratic ways of hosni mubarak. and in the end, they pulled back from it. so i think there's plenty of blame to go around. this is a man who has been in power from reagan to obama. he's known five presidents, and he's picked the pocket and stiffed five presidents in a row. this kind of guessing who lost
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egypt and who should have known, i am really not interested in it. i wrote a lot about egypt trying to underline the troubles of the mubarak regime. it's really not about this debate in washington. it's really about this revolution in egypt and whether we go and embrace it and proclaim it and accept it as a legitimate revolution that a free people are entitled to. >> david, it's a difficult situation for the obama administration. given the history with egypt, the american support of the mubarak regime for 30 years, how in your opinion have they been playing this, mixed messages or have they been consistent? >> they've had lots of mixed messages. they were very wobbly in the beginning, anderson, i must say they did not see it coming, nor did any other major government that i'm aware of. certainly in international forum ten days ago, there was widespread belief that nobody saw this coming. so the americans couldn't be blamed for that.
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where i think they do bear some blame is not developing some alternative plans should something like this occur. they had no backup plans, they had no plan b, no plan c, nor did they have a lot of strong relationships within this community of protestors, some of the non-profit groups, some of the other power centers in egypt. the fact is, most american administrations stretching back over five presidents have watched mubarak pick our pockets but he's also been a strong ally on a lot of issues such as iran and israel that have been very important for american presidents and there's a tendency in that situation to look the other way at the thievery. to look at the other way at the corruption and repression and say look, we have larger fish to fry. were they caught by surprise? i think legitimately caught by surprise, yes. but did they have a backup plan? no. have they been consistent on this? no. i think they are trying very
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hard and they've been better at it in the last few days than in the beginning. >> fouad, it is interesting, the bush administration, as you mentioned, had this sort of policy of i think it was name and shame was sort of the nickname for it. i think condoleezza rice made a very open statement at cairo university during the bush administration criticizing the regime, saying they needed to be more open. the obama administration took a different tact of privately saying the same things but publicly not naming or blaming, right? >> we're so many light years from that famous speech that barack obama gave in egypt, his outreach to the islamic world in june of 2009. it was full of promise. but i think soon people in egypt and beyond egypt, in syria, lebanon and iran, in the summer of 2009, they soon took measure, they took the measure of president obama and they realized that he is a realist, quote unquote, a realist, that he's not interested in the spread of freedom. because it was associated with george w. bush, it had a bad
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game. and the obama administration, and i hate to just -- i want to respond to something that david said. my respect and affection for david is unlimited. he's worked with as many presidents as henry viii had in wives. >> some would say with equal results. >> and i'm very differential to him on matters of policy. but we must understand the bargain we made with someone like hosni mubarak. yes, he helped us in retail ways, but the terror he unleashed on us indirectly, and the kind of egypt he made and manufactured and the blowback that came our way from egypt is enormous. a thesis has been made, the road to 9/11 led through the prisons of egypt. the torture chambers, the prisons that gave us many, many members of al qaeda. al qaeda had a saudi prince here and a saudi head, ie osama bin laden and much of the leadership, much of the men who committed terror were the product of egyptian society and the pathologies and injustices.
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>> fouad, i think that's right. it's fundamental. but i think you would agree that every administration in recent years has made the bargain on the side of security as to supporting the forces of democracy that were building up and the protests against the repression that occurred long before this president came in. i mean, don't you think every president has made that same bargain? >> absolutely. as i said, remember, this man was -- he came into the presidency after the assassination of anwar sadat on the watch of president reagan. so he's been around for a very long time and he learned how to master and play the american system. he knows how to talk to congressman and less so to the media. he's not a media friendly guy. but he also knows how to talk to intelligence people, as well. >> anderson, i might just add, "the los angeles times" is
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reporting tonight that there's a growing split within the administration itself, that at the senior level, secretary of state, secretary of nbc, nsc adviser, they're all for this strategy fouad has been arguing, let's have an orderly transition as hillary clinton has been arguing. but there is a growing group in the middle, the person who drafted the cairo speech, who are pushing to come out more strongly for the demonstrators, let's get rid of mubarak and move along. >> david gergen, appreciate it. dr. fouad ajami, i appreciate it you being us with, as well. still ahead, are concerns about the muslim brotherhood and the role it might play justified or overblown? you'll hear from a former member of the group who is now a big critic. and peter bergen, as well weighing in. later, a congressman's two-term career ending after he sends a shirtless photo of himself to a woman not his wife. details and the photo, ahead. [ female announcer ] enjoy a complete seafood dinner for two
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we're going to have more on egypt in a moment, in particular the muslim brotherhood. two different perspectives on it. but i want to get you caught up on a story happening in the united states. plenty of people, including congressman christopher lee's wife were surprised to hear. the website gawker posted this picture that lee e-mailed a woman to craigslist, a woman who isn't his wife. he e-mailed the picture on the right, not the one on the left. he apparently didn't get the memo that e-mailing a stranger may not be such a good idea. the two-term republican resigned today, issued an apology. dana bash joins me with the latest. dana, this seemed -- i mean, i never even heard of this guy before. what do we know about it? >> i can tell you what we know according to gawker.com which obtained these e-mails. the now former congressman lee was on a women seeking men forum and answered a personal ad from a woman asking if someone could
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prove not all craigslist men looked like toads. lee, who allegedly used his real game from a g-mail account, sent a reply as posted by gawker. i'll read it to you. it said, hope i'm not a toad, note the smiley face. i'm a very fit, fun classy guy, live in the capitol hill area, six feet, 190 pounds, blond/blue, which means blonde hair, blue eyes, 39, lobbyist and i promise not to disappoint. the two allegedly had e-mail exchanges after that where the married lee told her he was divorced and sent her that shirtless picture of himself. the woman figured out that lee was not who he said he was, gave the information to gawker. i want to emphasize that anyone close to him has confirmed to us the veracity of the e-mails oar the picture but he did abruptly resign today saying he made mistakes. >> it's amazing how quickly he resigned. >> warp speed, anderson. i don't think i remember seeing anything quite like this in washington. it was late afternoon that gawker coasted these alleged
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flirtatious e-mails. early tonight, we got word from a source close to him that he resigned and then we got a statement. i'll read you part of what he said. he said, i regret that the harm that my actions have caused my family, my staff and my constituents. i deeply and sincerely apologize to them all. i have made profound mistakes and promise to work hard as i seek their forgiveness. lee said later that he resigned effective immediately and there was a dramatic moment, anderson, on the floor of the house where the resignation letter was read and i can tell you from talking to a top house republicans, they were relieved they did it that fast. the last thing the new house republican majority wants is a prolonged sex scandal, because they're hoping because he wasn't well known, that it won't hurt the majority and go away pretty quickly. >> i certainly feel for his family and what they must be going through tonight. dana, appreciate it. thanks. just ahead, egypt's largest opposition group has thrown its weight behind the protests, but
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are the muslim brotherhood's goals at odds with democracy? we'll talk to two different perspectives on that. first, isha sesay has a "360" bulletin. isha? >> anderson, the arizona congresswoman gabrielle giffords is speaking again one month after being shot in the head at point blank range. a spokesman said she asked for toast two days ago at the rehab facility. she's apparently spoken other words, as well. her doctors say it's an important step in her recovery. the december death of a 27-year-old woman at the missouri home of aurg busch iv as been ruled an accident. the medical examiner says she died of a drug overdose. aristide, haiti's first democratically elected president, has been issued a new passport to return home
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according to the haitian interior minister. he left during a revolt in 2004 and has been living in south africa. his lawyer said that aristide has no intention of reentering politics. and a new analysis of 15 different studies finds that people who sleep less than six hours a night or more than nine hours raise their risk of developing or dying from heart disease and stroke. information i'll stay up worrying about. >> i was going to say, now i'm going to stay up worrying and won't get more than six hours. >> thanks for that. getting back to the serious news. we have a closer look at the muslim brotherhood. who they are, what they say they want and why some people are afraid what their role would be in a post mubarak egypt. later, a new study of breast cancer suggesting some patients. details ahead. in and they have a box. and inside that box is their financial life.
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today, the muslim brotherhood reiterated the group's stance in the egyptian protest. the spokesman said the muslim brotherhood will not field a presidential candidate in the next election. these declarations are not allaying fears by some of what the group's influence would be. i want to give you a quick primer. the muslim brotherhood has been active for more than 80 years. its purpose is religious and political. the corner stone is the belief that islam is more than a religion but a way of life and should have a role in political life.
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because of its religious agenda members were banned from running for the presidency and muslim brotherhood candidates ran as independents and won 88 of 444 parliament seats in 2005. one final point, the muslim brotherhood rejects violence but some critics say the group could be just biding time waiting for power and that anti-violent stance may change. i spoke earlier with two different people on different sides of this. i spoke with ayaan ali and national security analyst, peter bergen, author of "the longest war." when you were younger, you were a member of the muslim brotherhood when you were in kenya. why are you concerned about the muslim brotherhood in egypt and the chances of them coming to power? >> as a 15, 16-year-old, the strong members of the muslim brotherhood who educated me is they taught me for us to strive toward a society governed by sharia law, islamic law, and it
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wasn't only for us living in kenya. they intended it for everyone all over the world. >> so when people say look, the muslim brotherhood in egypt has renounced violence and worked peacefully for many years now. >> whether they work with violence or peacefully, they're working toward the goal of establishing islamic law. >> peter, are you as concerned about the muslim brotherhood in general, and getting into power in egypt? >> not really on either front, anderson. first of all, as you know, you visited there recently. the muslim brotherhood is engaged in conventional politics in egypt for a long time now. secondly, there's no chance of them getting to run egypt, because the level of support they have is not enough to take the country over. we saw that this revolution, they basically kind of got on the revolution late in the game. so they will be a player but they won't be the player in egypt going forward.
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>> do you have any doubt that the muslim brotherhood would like an islamic state, no? >> sure, and as you well know, anderson, and as ms. ali also knows, you ask most muslims do you want sharia law, they would say yes because it means a lot of different things to a lot of people. >> it doesn't mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. as a young child growing up with islam, me and all if other muslims i know were taught two main lessons. everything in the koran is the true word of god. everything that the prophet mohammed did was right and just, and we have to follow in his example. >> so what is it you're arguing for? i understand colonels about the muslim brotherhood and if you are a woman, if you are a minority, there are many reasons why one wouldn't want the muslim brotherhood to take power. what is the alternative? if they do represent 20% to 30%, you can't close off that voice in a democratic egypt.
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you're arguing for building up other institutions, having time so the other institutions can be built up. >> yes, and all of these countries people will say elections, elections. before an election can take place, you have to campaign. the muslim brotherhood has the resources and infrastructure to mobilize huge masses. to go and vote for them. look at the liberal voices. they are not organized. they don't have a common ideology. what i have seen on tahrir square and tunisia, get the bad guy out. that's not enough. that's not a program. what we need to do is stop worrying about the muslim brotherhood. a, there's going to be -- i hope that the egyptian constitution has to be rewritten in such a way that there are safeguards against a sharia state or against the next autocracy. >> peter, that seems what the united states wants to have happen right now, but it also seems like what many opposition figures in egypt right now are hoping to do, mohammed elbaradei who says the muslim brotherhood gets about
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20%, 30% of the popular vote, he's talking about allowing there to be a year transitional government that allows other forces, democratic institutions to be bolstered and gain support, correct? >> i think we're all in agreement that is the way forward, but we have to recognize that democracies are going to throw out people we don't necessarily agree with, and that's the point of democracy. >> that's a platitude. of course that's the point, but democracy is more than that. the muslim brotherhood, an islamist radical organization, once they get to power, is going to violate the rights of women, of homosexuals, religious minorities. we have to do everything in our power to prevent them from violating those human rights. >> peter, there are people in the audience who will equate muslim brotherhood with a group like al qaeda. al qaeda actually hates the muslim brotherhood, from my understanding, correct?
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>> al zawahri has written a book critiquing the muslim brotherhood and is critical for them for the precise reason they have engaged in democratic politics, which al qaeda regards as kind of against islam. so there is quite a lot of mutual hostility between these two groups. >> but that should not blind us to the shared objectives, the establishment of a society based on sharia law. zawahiri wants to achieve that through violent means. the muslim brotherhood's current leadership wants to achieve that through gradual peaceful means using and abusing the vocabulary of freedom and democracy. >> but you're not arguing this as a reason to keep mubarak in power? >> no. >> you're saying this is a reason to bolster democratic institutions in however long it takes in this transitional period? >> yes. i'm frustrated by what i've been reading in the past three weeks,
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which is it's either a mubarak type government or it's going to be sharia law and the muslim brotherhood. >> that's what mubarak has said, it's either me or the muslim brotherhood. >> i'm saying there is a third way. never limit your options to just two. if you look at the people in tahrir square, there are individuals there who believe in an alternative. what i am noting is they lack the infrastructure that the brotherhood has. they lack the power that the mubarak type people have. we need to support them in that way, and it's the right direction. >> appreciate your time. thank you. well, other news tonight. oklahoma and other states getting hit with another round of snow. more on the storm, where it's headed, coming up next. huge storm. and new information out today that may make a routine procedure for women with breast cancer unnecessary. details ahead.
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i want to get you up to date on other stories. isha sesay has the story about some buzz in the world of cancer and in the "360" news and business bulletin. isha? new research suggests many women with early stage breast cancer do not need to have lymph nodes removed. this could change the way tens of thousands are treated every year. the study found that removing lymph nodes from the armpit did not help patients live longer or
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avoid recurrence. all the women studied received lumpectomies and chemo therapy or hormone treatments. cue the misery, another winter storm in the southeast has turned roads and runways treacherous. that's after pounding the nation's midsection. parts of oklahoma got up to a foot of snow and windchills were 10 to 30 degrees below zero in some areas. fannie mae and freddie mac's days could be numbered. according to the obama administration sources, on friday the white house will announce a gradual phasing out of the government controlled housing jipts. they got a $134 billion taxpayer funded bailout back in 2008. and a source tells tmz that charlie sheen wants to return to the set of "two and a half men" by next week. it's also reporting sheen is feeling bad for the 300 crew members who are on forced hiatus while he's in drug rehab.
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tmz says sheen has offered to pay one third of his salaries of his crew. the warner brothers pays the rest. i'm so over him. >> yeah, it seems so ridiculous to even talk about him. we'll be right back. hey smart, you book your room yet? nope. see, hotels.com has over 20,000 last minute deals every week. so i get a great deal, no matter how long i wait. yeah... i'm not very good at waiting... then we must train you to wait. [ bird squawks ] ♪ [ both scream ] it is time to book, grasshopper. [ male announcer ] now, it's ok to wait. get great deals. even at the last minute. hotels.com. be smart. book smart. [ male announcer ] every day thousands of people are switching from tylenol to advil.
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